A Client Horror Story
That time when a high-profile athlete refused to pay for a $14 subscription
Watch the full episode →Hey, everyone, I’m very excited to have Mark Michael from DevHub with me today. Mark, it’s great to have you here.
Oh, thank you for having me, Morgan. Thank you for having me.
So, as usual, let’s jump right into your story. Mark, tell us your greatest client horror story. I have my drink in hand, ready to go.
Great. Well, obviously, there are so many lessons learned. From the 17-plus years here at DevHub, but unrelated, prior to this story in particular involves the NFL. And that might be the punchline. I don’t know yet. Essentially, we were working with a very high-profile athlete who told a very good story of what the plight of an NFL player is. From the time that, you know, from where they came up to their rookie year to college, to how they get drafted. And that like a sports agent…
Yes.
Only does so much, and they wish that there was like a CRM that was tailored to athletes that didn’t only just have their agents’ information, but also, who they would recommend for real estate transactions, financial transactions. So, we had a custom dev shop, my co-founder and I. And we set out to build out this like whole, kinda like CRM for these athletes. And again, very high-profile athlete. He kept looping in the NFL PA, which is the National Football League’s Player Association kept saying, oh, this athlete’s behind it, this athlete’s behind it. And the longer and longer we kinda got into it, he kept dangling the whole NFL, ” Is gonna love this.” As we got further and further into development…
Just wanna pause to jump in and analyze. You’re just throwing out a whole bunch of your gems.
Got it.
Are worth it for us to talk about and the list… the watchers, listeners…
Yeah.
I think, would enjoy. So, a pattern that I’ve noticed is people that name drop a lot, tend to be the most difficult people to work with. Where, so ’cause you… with the story that you’re telling so far, what stands out up until this point in the action of the story, is just all the name dropping. Oh, so and so, and so and so. So, a red flag or a yellow flag that I’m now really sensitive to, is people calling out like really, really big names. And there could be some sort of way, in which people use big names to compensate for their own inner failings. So… or I…
And again, it’s not even… it’s sometimes… again, in some cases, it’s people in other ways. We’ve seen it again since then. We recognize it now. But since then, when people name drop, oh, this brand or this company is also behind it. It also… it has the same effect as people, right? Like, hey, if you help me on this one…
Yes.
I can get you into this other one. And again, you find out very quickly they did not have the pull… again, in most cases.
Most cases.
Yeah. I’m sure there is someone that is true to their word and whatnot. But there… again, I would say in more cases than not, so far in my experience, it’s not to work out in your favor.
I’ve noticed this exact same pattern, a philosophical reason why this could be the case is, well like, when you’re actually that good and that confident you don’t need to name drop. Sometimes, I now also look for… like explicitly look for people who are like not throwing out any names because I… when you throw… maybe when people name drop, yeah, and I like your point. You can name drop people, but you can also name drop brands or companies that they’re doing so to compensate for their own problems. So…
Compensate for their own problems, but also to get a discount. Right? It’s like, compensate for them as a person, whatever they’re trying to do. But ultimately, it feels like what they’re trying to actually get is like a deal, right? Like, hey, let me get it for cheap now, or a heavily discounted now, and I’ll get you back later. You know? And that again, early when you see that at 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, and again, I’m assuming there’s some version of entrepreneurship in terms of people listening to this particular episode. Again, like early in your career… I guess it can happen later too, if this is your first time dealing on the front lines with a potential customer. But nonetheless, it’s like a telltale sign that something’s off if it already starts with some version of that.
Okay, so now there’s this person, there’s this NFL player you’re working with that keeps on dangling, all like, all of these names. And then, what happens? What happens next?
So, we start building and building and building. And again, this is… we had a very small build came up like a… it was either 19.95 or 49.95, obviously, I forget now.
Yeah.
And it was like, we just need a card on file for that bill. Meanwhile, we’ve been putting in all the hours, the work, building demos. We built multimedia presentations for him to help pitch it, all the things. And again, it was like, can we get a card on file? And he was like, “no, you pay for it.” And one of the lessons learned was, for us, was we kept a lot of it bottled up. Because again, like we were doing the work and there was the promise, the promise, the promise. So, even though the dollar amount of $19 or $49 at that moment, like probably wasn’t that a lot and we would’ve eaten it again, but we just let so many of… So much of the work buildup, and late nights, and running around, and being in his car, and all the things, and all the people, and it was just like, I snapped. I literally, I was like, you know, you’re making…
So, okay. Okay. So, I like how we’re building up to this… building up to this climax of you snapping. Before we talk about this snap and what happened, let’s dive a bit into the buildup to the snap. So, when this incident happened, where he wouldn’t put his card on file for the $19 or $49, at that point, approximately, like how much had you worked with him? Like how much had you built him?
I would say it was, without him knowing…
Yeah.
Or maybe he did. It was somewhere between 50 and 65% there. But again, it wasn’t only the software that we had built, right? It was all, like, everything. We did all the…
Everything.
Branding, all, like, again, we helped like, here’s your pitch. We had CDs, we had a film crew, we built like the whole thing as if it was our own company. I mean like we really built it. Yeah.
And it sounds like you put a lot of love into it as well, like you treated it like it was your baby.
I think it was a great problem to solve. Again, like I’m not an avid sports watcher, I don’t follow the NFL draft or anything. In any sport, almost at some level. Again, I have been liking some of the soccer stuff lately or football, whatever. And so again, it was very interesting that, like an athlete, their agent is mainly responsible for only their… by the way, the reason I’m actually spelling this out is, in case anyone wants to steal the idea, I still think there’s something in it for some that actually do. Anyway, the athlete’s agent is only responsible for securing them that to deal with the team.
Good.
But like the marketing deals, the real estate that they’re probably gonna purchase, they’re advising of what to do with their money. Those are not the same agent. And so it’s like, again, who do they trust? Right? And a lot of ’em do get ripped off. And so again, can you have this closed system that already had vetted people like a very interesting problem, you know? Yeah. And It was already seeded because again, I don’t remember the number exactly and I bet you we can probably Google it really quick. But the NFLPA, which is the National Football League’s Player Association, they actually have like a, I think they get a pension from being in the NFL and all this stuff. Already has a roster of all the decades, years past of NFL players that already had, in theory, if you come from Tech, 5,000 plus users already in there that needed this software. And so it was just a very interesting problem to tackle. So yes, needless to say, we did care.
Okay. Okay. So, you cared and you went far above and beyond.
Oh, yeah. I mean…
So, this sounds like this $19 or $49 was the story that broke the camel’s back. So up until this point, they had been paying all the bills, and from their eyes, they thought it was…
They had not been paying any bills.
Ooh, this is… this is… this is…
Right. That’s the whole… they paid nothing.
They paid…
$0.0 up until… and so again, it was like, “okay…”
Oh.
And it was always…
Interesting.
Deferring that money, like, oh, it’s okay. I was like, “Hey, we need a third upfront, we need half front.” It was like, “Oh, I’ll pay that later. Where I’m in right now I’m meeting with this person.” It was like that kinda thing. It was nothing.
I see.
It got to like the place where we’re not gonna just float the potential hosting bill of this thing. And so that was the $19 or $49 where we were like, can we just get a card on file for just the hosting?
Just that.
We hear you on the other payment stuff. We can be flexible on that, but just the… and it was like, “No, you pay for that.” And so…
I see. So you have this sexy, exciting project that’s also intellectually interesting.
Yeah.
So you went all out going far above and beyond, just building the software, but doing the decks and treating like your own baby. And because you’re so into it for the usual, at 50% done, you would think they would’ve paid 50%. And they’re always done saying, no, no, no, we’ll do this later, until the sterling broke the camel’s back of the $19 hosting bill.
And again, also…
Yeah.
Again, early in our career… now, every pro… regardless of what we do, even though I know now we sell enterprise software and this and that, still, at least half the implementation fee, in most cases, all of it is due upfront. All because of that story. All because of this story.
What… it… the most important aspects of these stories is, how did we change as people and how did our processes change? So, ensuring upfront payment is a great strategy and I think a lot of people and companies need to go through a painful experience like this in order to avoid this experience. Yeah.
And again, hopefully that’s what I think you’re capturing in the client horror stories, right? Because again, like it’s… hopefully it’s something that someone avoids. It’s not like… yeah.
We… part of the objective of this podcast series is so that younger versions of ourselves, the next generations of professionals, don’t make the same mistakes that we did. So they can learn from our mistakes
Again, and it’s funny, you see it or hear it all. I hear it, and I definitely see it a lot when someone’s like, well, this person’s gonna… they went and did all these things and they’re gonna join my company, or they did all… It’s all… it’s in the same vein to me. It’s all… it’s again… that previous success or the notoriety that they say they can bring, so far, it might not pan out within the same timeline or the idea that you’re trying to execute on, in the same way that maybe they had done it before. It’s in roughly the same idea.
Okay. Okay. So, I like how this story is building up. Sexy NFL player, sexy project, you’re going all out, putting your heart in and because of that, you let their early upfront payments slide because you’re so excited, and they were so important. And then, when they wouldn’t even put this $19 website hosting bill on their card, tell me about that moment of you flipping out and how did that play out?
Flipping out to me involved the F word. It was the… I think it’s the second time in my career, probably third, but the first time, and there was another time after that. But nonetheless, it was the first time in my career where I went… I just dropped the F word as many times as you possibly can. Depending on how you use the F word, it can be flattering or it can be very unflattering you how it can be like. You know, “F yeah.” Or it can be like “F you”, you know? And again, it’s like… and so obviously I took the “F you” approach, and I just… I lost it. I was just like… I said all the things that have been building up. Which again, I’ve also realized you cannot throw the kitchen sink at people.
So, there are a couple lessons in this moment here. One of the lessons is the importance of not letting the negativity build up and not letting the problems build up.
True.
So, even if you ignore the earlier lessons of ignoring the red flags of dealing with the famous and the celebrities, even ignoring that, we learn now, we realize now that you don’t wanna wait until the point of explosion. You need to realize when you yourself are starting to feel frustrated, so you can find a healthy way to talk about that months earlier.
100%. 100%. Even… again, that incident, even how it in informs our whole sales motion today, even at DevHub is, I say don’t be sheepish about price. Don’t be sheepish about timeline. I always say the first call is a no call. No… no sale-sale call. Tell them all the thing… all the objections upfront. So that they’re very aware versus trying to sell them on why we’re the best, right? Like start… go the opposite way. Here’s all the reasons why you wouldn’t fit for us, you know? And it honestly, a lot of it, it’s informed from that.
By the way, I personally do the exact same thing. I just call it the anti-sell.
Right.
And what’s funny is I never really thought about it. And I just do that naturally. And then a couple years ago, my wife and I were watching the movie, “The Godfather.”
Mm-hmm.
And there… and in the opening scene, like someone… there’s a wedding and this guy comes up to the Godfather and asks him to like, do something, kill someone or something. And then he just like… and the Godfather goes, “Why are you coming to me? You don’t need me to do this.” And just give the whole anti-sell coming to it. And my wife stopped the movie. She’s like, “Morgan, that’s exactly what you do.” And that’s… so now, in our internal language, it’s… I call it, “The Godfather strategy” as well.
I’m gonna steal that though. I love it. Yeah, I like that.
And what’s powerful about what we can call “The Godfather strategy” is a few things, is not only do you deal with all the objections and problems upfront, so they know about it, but you can also see if they’re a good fit. But on top of all that, it really shows this confidence. It’s not like, I… please, please, please, I need you and your 10 cents. It’s this, no, I don’t need you. Let’s really talk about all this dirty shit upfront. To see if we’re likely to make it through.
I mean, yes, I agree a hundred percent.
Yes.
Yeah. I mean, it is that… the only thing I would not even add, but just say it differently, is that… or I guess add a little bit more context would be like, I think it’s for us, it’s more useful when the product actually costs like some money that, again, I think if it’s like a lower cost product, to me lower cost is like under 50k a year. I think maybe you can run a little bit more robotic of a sales strategy, but in terms of like “The Godfather sale” when it’s like life or a couple hundred K, you know? To me, it’s like that’s where it works the best, right? Because it makes somebody really want it then versus when it’s cheap, it’s like, well, can I get it for cheaper? You’re not gonna ask the Godfather for it to be cheaper. You know what I mean? And so…
Exactly. Right. You don’t ask… I like your way of saying it. You don’t ask the Godfather for a discount.
Yeah.
Okay. So, you flipped out using….
Dropped all the F-bombs…
Dropped all the F-bombs directly. And how did that conversation go? What… how did he respond?
He responded very much like, you’ll never work. He just… he kind of threw it right back at me. He was like, “You’ll never work in the NFL again.” You just blew your ticket. All the things that he would say on his end, right? All the hype that he had built up, he basically went through it like, you’ll never talk to these people. He was just like…. and again, at that moment I really realized one thing, he was never into the idea. Because he was never gonna get it done otherwise. Right? If someone’s like into it and they put in all that work, like they don’t wanna lose that work. The fact that he was willing to blow it up too at the same time that we were, to me was like, he was never actually into it. Because otherwise, you don’t kill the golden goose, right? The person who’s actually building the thing that you’re using to go sell people and do all the thing… and then… yes, I may say, “Go F yourself.” But if your immediate response is “You also go F yourself. I don’t need you.” Like means, wow, you really like… Either are so delusional that you think you’re gonna build all the shit that we just built for all those months, or you just really never actually believed in it in the first place.
This is a series of great insights you just had and I want to talk through one of the implications, which is the following, something I found is, the reason to insist people pay and not like you can pay later. Like younger Mark did here is, isn’t only… so you get the money for your hard work. That’s kind of secondary. But paying is a sign of seriousness and the more you pay in general, the more serious you are. A pattern I’ve seen, for example is, I never hired people on commission only because when you hire people on commission only, yeah, do whatever you want. Like, you never… like both sides, never really commit to it. But I’m gonna pay you a really big fat salary. Guess what? I’m committing to pay you a lot of money. So, I’m going to give you all the tools, and energy, and everything to make it work. So I think one of the interesting aspects is, them paying zero is like from their eyes, yeah, these guys are just doing some work for free. Because they like it and they think they make 10 cents and it’s their quiet way of taking advantage of you. And with the ones that really care about the product, they would pay you a hundred thousand dollars because they really value it that much. Paying them… paying you zero, they valued your work at zero.
Yeah. A hundred percent.
And I think this is one of the lessons that I think is power… not just powerful to learn and make sense in theory, once you think about it. It’s also hard, like hard to implement, or hard to internalize, as well. Because you have these instincts to both be cheap when like everyone wants to save money when they hire things. And also, on the other side, when you like people and you’re excited about the project, you have this instinct, oh yeah, they’re a good guy. I really like it. No, no, it’s… to let it go. So, you kind of need to train yourself in order to realize.
It’s just… it’s, so again, I like what you said earlier when you said, what would we tell our younger selves? For the record, I still feel young. But, outside of that, yeah.
Feeling younger.
Yeah. I hear our investors’ voices in my head sometimes at night. They’re like you… and this is later on after this, even this incident, right? Which is like, raise your prices. You guys are doing really good work. Like people will pay for it. You know, like what you’re solving for is a lot bigger than you guys think. And it’s just like, but you’re so… you’re like equally scared of losing the opportunity by charging too much, but by doing so, you’re also… to your point, devaluing maybe the work that you’re doing. And so again, especially in those early years… especially when you’re starting out, like every one of those dollars is so important and so like you’re willing to take it. Yeah.
There’s another subtle implication of this moment and how you played it out that I also think is worth exploring for a minute, which is the NFL guy saying, everything I promised you of all these connections, you’re never going to get it. What’s also interesting about that was the whole promise that he had been dangling until that point, and now he took it away, but the entire cycle revolves around him holding the keys and him being at the center of it.
Yeah.
And because of that, he never really could introduce you to the others. Because as soon as he introduces you to the others, then he’s no longer the guy at the center and you no longer need him. And you no longer rely on him. Which is why I think the much more powerful strategy, or let’s say, and let’s say the much more mature strategy on his part, is to just give away the introductions. And this is what I try to do. I love introducing people.
Same. Same.
Like I found…
I believe… I tell people, actually, I don’t know if this is what you’re saying, Morgan, so correct me if it’s not.
Yeah.
What I always tell people I start with an abundance of trust. I’m like, go for it. Especially for like newer, let’s say executives or leaders, managers, basically anyone in our company. I’m like, basically, at least the first three to six months, I’m like, make all the mistakes in the world. Ask all the dumb questions, you know? But I fully trust you. Even if it’s something that maybe we had done before. Like for me, if we’ve done it before, I don’t wanna say it’s wrong, especially when they’re new. Because I like… I don’t know, maybe they’re gonna do it differently, right? Or maybe they’re thinking about it like… again, differently than we had thought about it then, you know?
Yeah.
So again, like nowadays specifically, I always start with just like an abundance of trust. Like go for it.
So it’s interesting in your situation or this story, looking at the different subtle clues that he didn’t trust you, not paying you, and like not wanting to pay you is a sign of lack of trust and lack of seriousness. Dangling, oh, one day I’ll introduce you to these other really important people is also a sign of lack of trust and lack of seriousness. If he really trusted you, then he would introduce you to all these other people from date… from day number one, which would make you like, trust him even more and build up the credibility even more. But he would be talking big game, but at least in these two signs, he would be so displaying to you lack of trust.
Yeah. I guess what’s sort of sad, is that there was work to go along with it, so like it’s a weird thing. Like, how would you not trust it when you’re seeing in the work? It’s not like we’re both dancing and there’s no work being delivered. It’s like there’s work being delivered, like you’re there, like you… here’s how you go pitch this thing. Here’s the conversations you get to have. So again, it is a deep seated insecurity. There’s a little caveat or a little PS to this story too. Whenever we’re ready for it.
We’ll get to the…
Okay.
PS in a few moments once we finish at the arc. I feel like we’re at the high point of the arc where we built up to the big breakdown, all the F words. He then responds in anger, you’re never gonna work in this town again, Sonny.
Yeah.
And then what happens?
We never talked to him again.
Never talked to him again.
It was over. It’s funny, what I should have done, I actually kept, I always kept… we have that proposal, we have that… not even proposal, we have the whole architecture schema, everything built out. We have the CDs of the demos. ‘Cause this was then, we had… and you know what I… and in a weird way…
CDs.
And I still have them. I could have always said, one day I’ll frame it. And it’s funny, I… we should have just… we should have ’em framed by now because it was the best, it was such good work. Like, we did really good work for that. And I was like, at least we got a really cool… all the documentation, all the things around it. And I kept it. I saved… I know I have it today. It’s just in storage across town. But nonetheless, yeah, I kept it all these years.
I think if I were in your shoes, this is the sort of thing I would definitely frame and put it on my wall like…
Hundred percent.
Because…
I should. That was always the plan with it. I was always going to do that once we got a bigger office or actually, at that time, once we got in the office in general. And but now we have an office and I guess I just forgot until thinking about this particular story here, but yeah, the plan was always to frame it. The cd, like the fuck… all the graphics that we had, all the things. The logo and all of it.
Yeah. What do adults put on the walls of their houses and their offices? A lot of people just like you still get prints like you’re in college, but what’s great about this is, it’s so personal and meaningful and it’s this like pivotal moment in the company history where you just learned a lot of lessons. You… it might be inspiring for you and your team to go get it out of storage. And things are in storage, like you may as well throw it out. No one ever goes and looks in the storage anyway.
Yeah, true. It’s an American phenomenon.
We are… we can’t fight our “Americanness.”
I thought it was…
Behind.
Well, I saw the study like on storage, like units, the whole thing, like in Europe. I forgot what it is. It’s like, 10 to one in America versus anywhere in the world of like, you know, storage units is like a business. Yeah.
When I moved from the US to Latin America long ago, I put everything… so my apartment in New York put everything in storage and I was like paying at $300 a month at like 15 years ago for months. And at some point I’m like, oh my God, I’ve been doing this for 10 years and I’m never gonna touch. And like, things in storage for a decade, you don’t need. And that’s when I realized it’s a genius business model, storage.
Oh yeah. I mean, yeah. Same, same, same, same.
Okay. So we’re on a little bit of a fun tangent on putting this memory up on your wall. But he was like, you’re never gonna work in this town again. And then you just went your separate ways. Like learned your lessons.
Learned our lessons. He used to drive a… I believe it was a Silver Range Rover. So till today, I won’t buy a silver car. And then….
This is how scarred you are.
No, no, no, I don’t. Deep down I would drive a silver car. I think I… no, I don’t have one. I actually ended up driving a silver car after that. But anyway…
You’re violating your own principles.
The PS to this was, I was at a wedding, maybe, I don’t know, call it a couple years ago. And someone was talking about like NFL stuff and Bellevue, we’re in Washington. And I was like, oh, I was working with this guy named “The Guy”. The guy never said anything that I was telling the story to. And I was like, yeah, and there was this guy and he was an asshole and never paid us, da da da da. The guy was like, that was my dad. And he was like, I don’t talk to my dad.
No. Wow.
Yeah. I was like, oh, okay. I was like, I get it. I totally get it.
That is a good lesson there that people who are assholes in one aspect of their lives are likely assholes. Lots of aspects.
Hundred percent. A hundred percent. And maybe he is made up with his son by now. Who knows? But nonetheless, at that moment, the son was like, yep, that’s him. I was like, wow. Okay. Got it.
There’s an interesting implication there also, because if people who are assholes in one aspect of their life are likely assholes in all aspects, if you’re considering working with someone, it’s a bit of an interesting strategy to put on your asshole detection radar in other aspects of their life. Go to a restaurant, see how they treat the waiter and so on. And because if they’re assholes to the waiter, they’re likely to be assholes to you.
A hundred percent. Again, I don’t know… I always just… I try… again, I try to build a human company. It’s so hard in the face of everything. Anyway, like context of the other human and their experience and what they’re bringing to blank situation is a lot more relevant and powerful if you’re able to like maneuver within the… Like a frame of mind or the context that they’re coming at it from, so that you can actually figure out, one if you guys are compatible, and this can be like a great partnership, customer, colleague. But it’s understanding like a little bit more about the person. And then again, the simplest question is, do you like cats or dogs?
Clearly the right answer for the person you wanna work with is dogs.
See, no. For me, it was cats.
We can’t work together. I failed your test.
For me it’s like, well, what do you… why do you even like dogs? And if you’re like, why rescue, and then it’s like, oh, okay, well then, that’s huge. Right? But for me it’s… there’s a cat walking around me right now. And he just keeps me owing and I’m like, you’re the best. And yeah.
So, I have a question for you.
Mm-hmm.
Which is the following? So one of the aspects, or this is one of the more subtle aspects of your story that stands out to me is, all the enthusiasm that went in and then pop. And just… I’ve done maybe 70 Client Horror Story episodes right now, as of now approximately. And I see this interesting divergence, ’cause a lot of things that people agree on. So everyone agrees you need to learn to deal with problems and your emotionals, fears and things like not getting paid when they’re smaller before they get bigger and so on. But, I often hear stories like this, resulting in companies losing that… not wanting to put in the love that you put into this project. You put in so much love and which is why you had such a great result and now you’re burned and you’re like… and you could go one of two ways, you can go from now on, we’re just serious professionals. You pay us, we do a good job. But there’s no more of that tender love and care. But some people say, you just need to learn to always put in love and sometimes you’re gonna get your heart broken and that’s just the nature of falling in love. And I’m wondering which of these sorts of paths you and your company took. Or if you carved at it a different path?
I would say, have quadrupled down on giving a shit. We have quadrupled down on caring, I mean so much so that like my favorite thing is what I tell… at least on the sales front, I always tell them, I’m like, look, I’d rather you lose a deal and left an impression. And the impression is that you actually listened and that you actually know even more than they could know or could think that you would have known ’cause you’re just a salesperson. And then of course, like when we pitch, like when they’re bigger, bigger deals, where I’m involved in, the way that the team rallies around that, and again, I would say executive slash leadership team alongside of our sales team, to actually pitch. And ultimately, I would say we win 9 out of 10 pitches be… and we’re coming in way higher price than anybody else. But hopefully, what we’re demonstrating besides saying we care is showing it in the work. And so we’ve never, not done the work to get the free easy deal. Like we’ve always gone kinda over and above. And again, it’s really hard because…
It’s hard.
It’s really, it’s hard because again, like to… how do you make that really scalable? A million other things that investors, boards want. Which is like, how are you gonna hire 50 people to do that? And it’s like, we’re getting better at those processes now. But it’s taken a while. And so…
So, I figure this finds fascinating and I love it. It’s interesting that one way of viewing what is the Client Horror Stories show about is it’s really about becoming a professional and looking at the words itself. The word professional comes from the Latin word, meaning to believe in a religion. You profess a religion, and while the opposite of a professional is an amateur. And the amateur comes from the Latin, “Amare”, to love. But from an amateur to a professional is really the person that does it out because they’re in love. They don’t do it out of love. They love the product, the client, the technology, what they’re doing to the person who says, I profess a religion of the best practices. This way of seeing the world, doing it in the right, correct, proper way. So, becoming a professional is often about the journey of from doing it outta love to discovering the religious beliefs of the right way to do it. And what’s interesting about that is that process for more companies than not, in my experience, just doing the show and the intense life experiences I’ve had in companies I’ve advised and invested in, is it’s often, results in losing the love, using that… Losing that amateur spirit to become the serious professional. And there’s something sad about that because that love, as naive high schoolers in love to continue with the dating metaphor is just so powerful and everyone wants to work with someone that is still in love and is still able to be wide-eyed, enthusiastic. Even after having been burned so, so much. But, most people lose that. So, congratulations on quadrupling giving a shit.
Yeah. I don’t even… I don’t…. there…. I don’t have…. there’s nothing… I don’t… I can’t even see the other side. I mean, I can obviously, ’cause it’s very simple, right? You get burned. I don’t wanna fuck… I don’t wanna get burned again. And like, you just lose the luster. Everyone’s gonna be like that. But the reality is, if you go down that rabbit hole, it’s like… I always joke… I joke…. I don’t know, this will actually turn into a joke or whatnot. But it’s like, I don’t think any of us in 8th, 9th, 10th grade, senior year of college, whatever the hell you wanna call it, graduate school, woke up one day and says, I wanna be the VP of customer success. Or the sales account executive. We had dreams. People had ideas, it wasn’t like, I’m gonna be the 15th, hundredth person at this company and it’s like, get outta here. And so, I dunno, at the end of the day, for me, there is no other way except to actually give a shit. And I guess I feel bad for those that maybe lost that sense of spirit or wonder.
There’s a semi-obscure saying that I like, which is, ” Anyone can do the right thing under crisis and stressful situations. But the really hard thing is bearing the day-to-day life.” And I like that way of saying, a day-to-day life wears you down. And I feel like there’s this secret trick in life of retaining the childish glow, and the childish wonder, and the childish love in face of all, I feel… And I feel like this applies on a personal level, but then on the team, company level, there’s something special about that little startup magic. But when you’re making tens of millions of dollars a year, how do you not become a heartless bureaucracy and keep that childish magic? And that’s where most people fail.
I agree. You said it really well, and I’m gonna steal the whole amateur professional’s narrative, by the way.
So, I’m happy to have given you two different things.
Yeah, well, the Godfather sales strategy and then the amateur professional. I’m gonna totally steal that.
Part of the way my brain works when I have a couple unique magic powers, but almost every word I hear, I just see the whole etymology of the word. So I tend to think about every concept from where do the words we use from it and where do the words actually come from? And it’s magic powers also how I have fun.
Oh yeah. That’s awesome. I like it. I’ll steal it every time.
That’s great. I feel like we’ve gotten a whole bunch of awesome and deep lessons from your story. Are there any other lessons that you wanna throw out that you got from this story? Or any other realizations, or any related advice you wanna give to the younger version of yourself?
I guess this is the one that I’ve been thinking about literally this week, which is very much… again, to me business is people, like it’s all people, right? It’s different people, different motivations, and you… like there… it’s inevitable. Every one of us will get burned by a person, another human that maybe you were close with. Whether you were never close with, that you took a chance on, that you invested a lot of time with, and it doesn’t work out for a million reasons. And it’s easy when it doesn’t work out to be like, I’m not gonna hire that type of person again, I’m not gonna go after that type of customer again. I’m not like… you basically blanket everybody into that category of I don’t wanna work with that person, or I don’t wanna hire for that role because whatever. The reality is, like it was one, it was like a person.
Right.
A single person that gave you that bad taste. Like…
And equals one.
You do need to hire another one, and hire another one, and hire another one. You might get burned three times in a row. The point is, don’t get stuck in that weird little rabbit hole of all people are like this. Because it’s like they’re not, I would say the majority are actually good, but if you don’t give your chance to work with more, yeah, then you’ll be stuck in kind of that paradigm. And so, yeah, that’s been my… the latest, that one and… yeah, that one’s the most relevant for this right now. The other one is a little bit off topic, but yeah.
My way of summarizing what you just said would be a huge portion of success is just the ability to just get back up on your feet every time you fall down. And when you’re burned a few times in a row, it’s like easy to become cynical about that whole aspect, that whole space, that whole type of person.
Right.
And it’s all about getting back over your feet, and but not just that, getting… the famous quote for you from Einstein of insanity, to do the same thing over and over, and expect different results, which is you need to get back up on your feet. But you always ask yourself, okay, why did I fell down last time? So how do I walk a little bit differently? So, this time I don’t fall down.
Yeah. Yeah. That’s probably the best way to sum it up.
And with this great summary, Mark, it’s been a super fun conversation and I’ve enjoyed it. I hope you did. I think we all have great points from it, and everyone who’s watched this to the end, thank you for watching and we hope you enjoyed watching it as much as we’ve enjoyed talking about this. Until next time.
Thank you and thank you Morgan. ©2026 Client Horror Stories by Beloved by Clients – Privacy Policy, Terms & Conditions – Resources – Beloved by Clients